Ep. 18 — Lee: Building a Life From a Tough Start

Some men spend their whole lives running from where they started.

Others stop running and use it as the blueprint.

My mate Lee is the second kind. In this episode he sits down with me to talk about growing up in South Africa, moving to Melbourne, and figuring out how to build a life in a country that didn't owe him anything.

We get into fatherhood — and the privilege of it. We get into the wake-up call that pulled him out of his early-20s lifestyle. We get into the conversations he's had to have in his marriage, the friendships he's had to leave behind, and what intentional living actually looks like for a man trying to build something meaningful from a start that didn't hand him a blueprint.

This one's about presence over ambition. Wisdom over hustle. And the work of being the father you didn't have.

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In this episode:

— Growing up between South Africa and Melbourne

— What he was running from in his early 20s

— Wanting to be a great father from a young age — and where that came from

— The privilege of fatherhood and the wonder of building little humans

— Ambition vs presence — the constant tension

— The hardest conversations in marriage

— Why he stopped blaming his parents

— The value of seeking out older generations who've walked the road

— Intentional living — what it actually looks like day-to-day

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If you're a man trying to build something meaningful — I'd love to hear from you.

The Walk is a fortnightly podcast about fatherhood, marriage, and showing up. New episodes every other Monday.

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Connect:

Substack, Instagram & Youtube link in bio!

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Thank you for walking with us.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello everyone, welcome back to the walk. I'm Jake Dunley, and this week I'm sitting down with a good mate of mine, Lee. He's a father of two, a husband, an entrepreneur, and a man who's been on a real journey from a tough upbringing, you'd say, probably in South Africa, to building a life and a family here in Australia. We're going to get into all of it today. And as always, like we've discussed, this is a space for raw, honest, and non-judgmental conversation. Thanks for walking alongside us and being a part of this journey. And if you're a first-time listener, then there's plenty of episodes to go through and see what this is all about. If you're a regular listener, then I appreciate the support. And the biggest thing you can do is follow, like and subscribe and comment on stuff. That's how we grow this community. So I thought I'd open with a little bit about Lee or what I know about Lee. We've been good mates for a while now. Lee's a father of two, he's a husband and a bloke who's been building from the ground up his whole life. So businesses, relationships, and more importantly, him himself. And the one thing, like when I was sending these things, uh pre-interview questions and stuff to you, the one thing that uh stood out to me and always has and I've respected about you is that you don't pretend things are perfect. So you've done the work, you're you're still doing the work, um, and you carry a story that I think a lot of people and especially a lot of men will connect with. Um, and you know, this conversation is probably going to be really about what it looks like when you decide as a man and and and as an individual to sort of break the cycle. Um, and you know, you give your kids what you didn't get, um, is is what I get from you and your your approach to fatherhood, and figuring out who you actually are beyond the hustle. Um, so I thought we would start the the journey, yeah, the walk. Um probably just a little bit about who you are, um, and yeah, take you can go as far back as you want here to your origins, you know, just being a a kid from South Africa. And yeah, yeah, okay. Floor's yours, mate.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, no problems. Um, yeah, so obviously we've known each other for a while. Um uh yes, from South Africa. We we um we migrated to Australia in '97, so I was seven years old. Um and yeah, that's basically where the journey, journey started. So, you know, we'll probably get into the middle of that, but you know, fast forward to now, yes, I'm a father of um two. And um yeah, uh, you know, we've we've built uh you know life together from from you know, I've known Say for a long time, my wife. Um so yeah, it's it's not it's not been an easy road, right? So but a a lot of it, like you said, I I kind of want to give the life to my kids that I didn't really have or see myself um, you know, having. And and most of that is based around, I think, more just like love, yeah, really, you know. Not to say that my parents didn't love me, but um different kind of love. Yes, yeah. So the love that, you know, you you kind of got to know the other person and and give them what they require rather than just the you know sort of um one way, same way.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah, well I think it's it's it's like it's not that thing where you you I've I've said it in previous episodes where I don't think a marriage really starts till you have kids. Like you kind of think you know what the other person wants and and they sort of think they know what you want. But then when you are exhausted, as all parents get, and you're you're worn out and you have your ups and downs, that's when the relationship really starts, because you start to realise that what you thought was probably filling the other person's cup really isn't, and what they think they're doing to fill yours really isn't. Um and it probably for you, like I remember you were saying that your parents had you really young, like they were 20. Yeah. Um, like coming here to a new country and starting a new life with like no family here, was there's no family, was there, there was no support. Like how how did you um like how did that shape how you approach your like uh manhood, I suppose, or parenthood and relationship now? Because you would have seen probably the the best of them, but also the worst of them as well. Like, how's that shape you?

SPEAKER_01 4:09

I think um they like coming like being 20 and having a kid itself, you know, with with not much life experience is hard on its own. But then when you're migrating from a different to another country and the culture's completely different, everything's different, you don't know anyone, you don't have that support, um, you kind of gotta like for your kids' sake, try to figure things out whilst the parent and like as parents, you know how hard just the little things are and it's in its own. So um I actually don't know how they did it because like I'm still figuring out stuff now and I've had a wealth of experience. But um, yeah, I guess it it's I don't even know how to explain it.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

It's it must be like it's a certain level of adapting. Like I remember when we moved to New Zealand, so we lived in New Zealand for uh six, seven years or something, and I remember going there and I was only young, but I was lucky that like I don't have to learn a new language or the cultures are quite similar, you know. Like, but I remember how hard that was. You're starting with a new as a child, starting with a new friendship base, you your parents have got to then make new friends. So for them to obviously be present and do all that isn't a luxury that they have, you know. And I talk about presence a fair bit, but I think when you look back at the older generations, they didn't have that luxury we have now. We don't see it as a luxury, we see it as like a burden, like not a burden, but it's like we need we want to be present, we want to be better, we want to be this. But they did that did probably didn't even go into their minds, you know what I mean? Like it was mainly we need to fucking make money, and we need to keep a roof roof over our kid's head, give give him what he doesn't have, uh what he didn't or wouldn't have in South Africa, say um, and just like cross our fingers, hope for the best that he he turns out okay. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um so like but for you, like what was it like? I suppose the the like the new country and the different culture, was that easy to adapt to or was it like an eye opener?

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Um I think it was it was somewhat easy because I was still kind of young. I can it's only seven years old, so I can only remember, you know, bits and and pieces of South Africa. So I kind of like you know, still grew up here, but um you still get, you know, because I had a bit of an accent coming here, so you still get tears with that, you still get tears with with skin colour and and things that kids kind of just do in school. Yeah. Um I feel like my parents were I don't think they gave me a lot of social skills that I had to really like. Um because like I said, they were young, they're figuring things out for themselves. So so did I, in a way. Yeah. Um by it was always trial and error. But you start off, you know, you you make one friend and then you make another friend, and then school is what it is. You're gonna get teased and bullied sometimes, and then sometimes you're gonna be the cool kid. But um yeah, you just run through those emotions.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yeah, and it would have been um I I I mean, probably you looking back at you, probably just like I figured it out, but there'd be a lot of kids out there, it's like it's real daunting. Like, school's fucked, man. Like school's so daunting. Like, I again not the same thing with the whole cultural shift, but like going to New Zealand, like you know, I was a white kid in a predominantly Maori school. Yeah. And I was a fat white kid. So I had I was like literally like white, which like they didn't love, and fat, which was just like an easy target. You know what I mean? Like, and so like props to you for coming through that. And also, like it you you you appreciate what your parents do as you get older, you know. Like I look back now as a father, and there's certain things that were definitely not there emotionally for me as a father, uh as a young kid from my father. Not that he was a bad father, fantastic, but it there are the things that weren't there emotionally that now I try and instill into my kids. Um, and I think that's more through probably like the honesty around things and the dis and the honesty around like I'm not like I'm I'm frustrated with you because of this decision you've made, not um like fucking shut up. You know, you know what I mean? So like for you, what when your parents are going through that and you're going through that shift, like what there for you was like what wasn't there emotionally? Like as a looking back now as a father, and if you would put yourself in the shoes of your parents, what sort of things emotionally would you do differently?

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Um I think that like now I do it with with Lumi or Alice is a bit young, but definitely Lumi because she knows. So everything's you know, you figure things out as you go as a parent, but then obviously when she start doing things that weren't right or wrong or whatever it is, you start by yelling and then well, me. And then um you work out yelling doesn't do anything, so it doesn't care. And then you just see this trial and error of how do I get the result, and then one of the ways that um especially recently, um, getting a result from her is just dropping down to her level and and speaking to her and teaching her things like you know, when you're angry, you're mad, just take a second, breathe and let her wind really down so you can actually speak to her and she can understand what you're saying. Yeah, whereas um, you know, back in my day, and I'm sure it was the same for a lot of people, you just get you know yelled at or smacked or you know, something. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

I think I think the thing is too, it's like we probably grew up um like the generations before our parents' generation, they'll they'll fam families that were just coming probably out of a uh out of a second world war, go back again. They're some families went through World War I, World War II. Like, you know, there I a common theme that I sort of s uh I've seen through researching stuff and also talking to people is that certain things that lacked were like uh being hugged or just being told it's okay and feel what you want to feel, which is so hard as a parent to do when your kids losing their shit. Like soul is just okay. You saw him the other week at that party. Like he's he's chaos, he he runs his own race, and like to you know, and he's but the the hard bit with him is with all these like uh social anxiety issues and stuff, it's you know, there's times where I'm at those things, like it took us fucking 45 minutes to an hour to get him into that hole.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

We're outside for ages. Didn't want to eat around anyone, didn't want to be around anyone, didn't like being there. Um, and like all you want to do is like just fucking like you just want to go listen, get the fuck inside, you know what I mean? Get inside. Yeah, this is what we're doing, and if you don't fucking like it, then tough luck. Yeah. But you like you said, and you hit the nail on the head, is it doesn't work. Like those deep breaths, we we do belly breaths, so we're like, take deep belly breaths, big breaths in, big breaths out, you know. Even where like Atlas, like, well, for people who don't know, um, Lee's son's name's Atlas and mine's Atlas as well. Um, but like even Atlas, you know, he'll when he, you know, he's got this shit habit of bumping into everything. Like fucking, he's like a rugby player, man. Like, I reckon he'd be retired with a concussion by now already, right? He's just that type of kid. It doesn't matter what you do. Um, but even he does it now, like you know, and he sees Sol do it and stuff. But um, yeah, was there like when you were when you're younger, and obviously your parents are running on adrenaline with that shift and everything, like were there times where you probably felt like you just needed to be held or just needed to be heard? Like, you know, as e even as you went through the years, like once you'd sort of solidified a life here, were there still moments where you kind of felt like I just want to be held or I just want to be, you know, heard? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Yeah. I think um there was like the definitely when it was younger, I do remember instances where you know I'd I'd be just laying in bed and yeah, mum would be singing to me, singing to me, um, sleeping. I think I don't know if it's an ethnic thing or an older generation thing, but I was in my parents' bed until maybe like 11, 12, maybe, and probably a bit earlier. Um, but yeah, there's there's definitely um times where I do remember it, but I think mainly um, and it could have been the people you hung around at school as well, but every time um we'd go to school in the morning, like we'd go straight to someone's house in the afternoon and then we'd be out all night, come home at 10, sleep. So I'd never really see or have that family quality time. Yeah. Um, you know, dinner at the table, for example, is something that we try to do every night. Just as a, you know, a family. Yeah. And that's something that I never did growing up. Yeah. And that's something I want my kids to, you know, cherish and and yeah, do it for the rest of, you know, as long as we're around.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

And so like when those those little things that you probably thought were missing, like did you when did you start to notice that they were missing? Do you you know what I mean? Like, was it then or was it more like this is just life when I'm a kid? But as you became a father, you kind of like, fuck, those moments were missing when I was younger, you know. And it's again, no disrespect to your parents. No, no, no. Like like mine. Yeah. But you know, we do the same thing. Uh our us as a family, like we have a candle in the middle of the table and we're trying to, you know, we light the candle as we have dinner, and then soul, because Alice can't, but soul will like blow the candle out, and it's like dinner's done. Yeah, you know, to try and because of his visual cues as well, his visual impairment, it's kind of like gives him that thing of he doesn't have to be so anxious because he worries about everything. Um, but I knew like when I was younger, we did a lot of that family dinner and stuff, but it was sometimes it was like broken up, like dad was working late, or there was a poor period of time where dad worked night shift. So we would go home, we'd go to bed, then mum would wake us up at like nine, nine thirty, put us in the car, we only had one car, drive, pick up dad from these like factories in Clayton, and then we would drive back. And I remember like not knowing not realizing at the time, but th those precious moments that uh my dad would have missed. Um so like I noticed them now. So, like, was that the same for you? Like when you became a father, you were like, these can't happen. Um and prior earlier on you sort of said um just at the start that you know no um disrespect to my parents, and you know, my parents are fantastic people, and I've met them before, they're wonderful people. But um, like how did you get to that place of not blaming your parents? Because I find a lot of people that's the easy out. Like, I've been there before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been there. Yeah. Um, and at times I catch myself there sometimes. Um, but how did you get to the point of just going like it's not their fault?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

You know? Um, I was the same as you, like I blamed, you know, for a long time. It was like, you know, that was the easy way out. But I think it more came from an understanding that um they didn't have the same opportunities as like they moved us here to have a better life. They didn't really necessarily have that opportunity because they were building that for us. So I think um just understanding their situation and what they had to go through. Um, also being 20 and having a kid, you kind of had to yeah, learn a lot of things that maybe their parents didn't teach them as well. So it's like um, you know, here's a kid, go figure it out. So, how were they how do I expect them to give me those things whether having the right tools to then give it to me? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Well, there's so many hindsight. Like it's you know, it's with everything we do in life, there's hindsight. So like you work with people, you work with bosses, say, um, in the past, and you're like, he's a fantastic boss, but he was a prick. Yeah. So it's like, well, I won't take the traits of him that was a prick, I'll take the traits of him that work really well, whether he's like a very good dictator, which is a trait of a good boss, like you're doing this, you're doing that, and I ain't doing shit. Um, but yeah, like it's you in hindsight now, looking back at it, you kind of go, fuck, like, I don't want to do that, but I can understand why they were doing that, especially like you know, you know it's like being a parent, man.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

It's not easy. You run it on empty. Yeah, I think funnily enough, I think that's why my um there's a 10-year gap between my um me and my sister. Because I think I scarred my parents. They're just like, Yeah, they're like, no, and then my mum's like, better not be another boy type thing. Yeah, and then she got my sister, and I think I was like, okay. Yeah, calmed everything, yeah, yeah. Because I wasn't I don't think I was the easiest kid from um what my parents told me and my my aunties and family and stuff like well which is which is like it's so funny because like our experience with with souls was completely different to anyone I've met, anyone that I know in my close circle anyway.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

But like Atlas is like Shan has to keep telling me, she's like Atlas is just being a normal kid, and it's fucking chaos. So I'm like, and he and he's he's like he's a boy, man. He's just like fearless, like get on the couch, and it's like dude, if you get hop on the couch, sit down, and he'll turn around and smile at me and jump and throw himself back, and like it it it it it must be hard. Like I love you, you know, you're good friends with Jaden as well, and I see him and I saw him on the uh yesterday, actually. And um just watching how more um more of a listener uh Aurora is. Oh like how much more like when I s when we're at the uh that party, yeah, Lumi was so like you would just say like Lumi's time to go, she's that cool. Or I think she went up on like fucking the the top of something and you just went over and went, hey, like look down, like you know, read the fucking room sort of thing. You know what I mean? Like have your fun, but read the room. Yeah. And I remember like you know, not and not um not prying or whatever. I just saw it and I was like, that's so cool. Like you just went up, you're like, hey, hey, like, have your fun, just be careful. Yeah, and like she took that on board and it was like we've got to go. And she was like, Yep, cool. And she said, like, you didn't really have to drag her away. Whereas like, fuck man, like you know, and same with Aurora yesterday, like they could just be sort of you know, jumped up. But both my boys have just like, you know, fucking flipping through trying to get in the car and shit. Like it's um, yeah, it it's uh I think boys must, you know. I've there's the thing where boys at the age of two, uh I think it's two, have the highest level of testosterone in their body they'll ever have. Males will ever have in their life, the boys have it at the age of two. Oh my gosh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

So I'm coming up to that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, so you like it's it is, man, it's like the uh like terrible twos almost. Yeah, and that's why they call it the terrible twos, but it's just full of chaos.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah. I wonder how Atlas is gonna be like, you know, being a boy as well. My Atlas. Um because he's yeah, 1.4 now, so it's only what eight, six, eight months.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, it's not long. No, but it's like yeah, like my Atlas. Yeah, he's uh October.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

So and like he's just telling him, man, he's fearless. Chaos. Like we were somewhere the other day and he was having like a fucking like I don't like birds, that's like my fear, I don't like birds, right? And he was having like this Mexican standoff with this fucking magpie at this farm. To the point where he was walking towards it, the magpie's walking towards him and looking at him, and I'm and he's like, and I'm thinking, he's either gonna grab it and like rip its head off, or this thing's gonna go at him, and then I'm gonna be in the city, like you know, Dak, fight or flight, I'll fucking uppercut a fucking magpie, man, won't bother me. But like I'm just thinking to myself, I'm going like fearless, like if you know, and yeah, it's crazy, man. Like having and like how how have you found it, I suppose, going from like you know, having that dynamic of a of a girl and a and a boy for kids, like how do you find that? Like, have you got a I mean Alice is only young for you, but like do you s do you find that you have like a different approach with him already that you didn't have with Loomie?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I don't know if it's um a boy thing or a second kid thing, but I feel like um with Lumi, I did so much more. And I don't know if yeah, like it could be a first kid thing or a girl, but like the nurture and the care I gave her was just like I think I did like because she was on on bottle, yeah, because I didn't breastfeed. So yeah, like we did 50-50 with everything, if not more, with um, you know, with the wake-ups and I wouldn't have an issue waking up with her. Like w how many however many times it was, whatever it was, um I was there. But then with Atlas, I don't know if it's yeah, if I think I is a boy, he'll he'll be good. Yeah. Or um, yeah, maybe he's bonded more with say than he is with me. But if if he gets up, I I kind of struggle more to get up for him.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

So I have no idea what that is, but obviously the love's the same. But I feel like I just feel like he'll be alright. Yeah. Being a boy, and like I focus on Lumi and worry about her, um, you know, kind of growing up. That's how like I want to do kickboxing or something, because yeah, if anything happens, like yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So um, yeah, that's that's a dime out. But I think um Lumi, Lumi's not like like what you saw at the park, she's not always like that. Like she's getting more like that now the older she gets, but she had like hectic energy growing up, man. Like it's mental. And I think she gives it more to say now, might be mother-daughter thing, yeah, than she does with me. But she's um she was very, you know, athletic. She'll she'll be on the counter on top of the counter at like eight, eight months old or something. She's like on top of the counter. I'm like, how did you get there? Yeah, they're quick. You know what I mean? Fucking spotter monkey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you you just have to watch her, and yeah, her ten her tantrums and everything was just wild. But Atlas started off really, really cruzy. And now he's starting to turn a little bit where we almost feel like he was a bit more hectic than her. Yeah, right. And we're scared, we're like, Yeah, what are we doing? Yeah, like holy moly. Yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah, it's good, yeah. We uh our ours it's ours was different. Like, I feel like I didn't give Soul anything.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Which is like something I struggle with heavily. I struggle with it m every day, man. Like I it but it catches me off guard every day. I have a moment. Um and I feel like my love and nurturing for Atlas has been far better than it was for Seoul. And I feel I don't know if it was because of the whole shock to the system and I just didn't want to be home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't want to be there. I was like I wasn't much of a father, like I've spoken before. Shan was almost incredible. Parenting cell for a period of time there because it was just I was no good. Um, so that's something I'm always trying to play catch up on. But then with like Atlas, like, yeah, it's sort of like opposite to yours with Atlas. I've been so and I don't know if it's because he is hectic. Like Seoul was very much like if you know, um a PowerPoint. Soul went up. I remember the first time and it was just like got down, and I was like, hey buddy, we don't touch that. And like, you know, touch her ouch. And he just like, cool, moved away. Yeah. Fuck Atlas will just sit there, bro. And he's just like this, and he's like, goes and put his tongue in it and shit, and I'm like, you fucking and it's at a point now where I'm just like nah, like num, there's natural consequences for your actions. It's like if you're gonna fucking zap yourself, I like it sounds so bad, but it's like, and when there's two kids, man, it's like you know, I think a lot of people can relate. It's chaotic. Absolutely, yeah. It's chaotic. Um so going back to your move to here, yeah. Um, and again, if if there's anything you don't want to speak about, please be open and honest. But um you you were talking about your your parents getting through it and all that, and there were some rough times for them, um which you would be exposed to. And and when I when I sort of when we had this pre this uh episode discussion, it sort of hit a nerve with me too, because I saw a lot of things that probably my sister didn't see. Um I feel like my sister probably got the better version of my parents. Yeah, I feel like uh and it's probably lingered right up into these years now, and it's not in disrespect to my parents, they're fantastic people. Um and they gave me the love and everything that they could at the time and what they thought was best. But um you were you know, you were saying you sort of didn't want to come home, you'd stay out till ten o'clock at night, you know, there was nine, three, eight dinner in your room on your own, because you just didn't want to be there, like you didn't want to be in that environment.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Like, can you remember back to like what was going on in your head at that time? Like whether you know, like it's obviously a dark place, especially young. Um and like yeah, what was going through your head?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Um my head I kind of just checked out, yeah, to be honest. Like I just knew it was obviously it was a lot of uh combination of a lot of things, but I think uh with a lot of households, like money is a very strong point where it's just like it could shift everything, like money stresses. Yeah. Um and I think it was a lot of that going on. Um and that's where I think a lot of the argument came through and a lot also differences, like two different people just arguing is I guess normal, but then at what point do you stop or what point do you not expose your kids to to that as well? 100%. So I kind of just um you know, I checked out from it. You know, if I'd hear if I'd hear arguing or whatever it was, I just kind of all right, you guys are kind of at us. That's do your thing. I'm out of it, you know. Yeah. And that's the reason why I'm like I always stayed out till late because I I didn't care about going home.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah. Really? Yeah, like it it sounds horrible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was like you sort of got nothing to go home to. That feeling of like 100% why why? Yeah. Like I I I went to if that's what I'm saying when it hit a nerve in me, was because like I remember us moving back here and dad jumping from job to job. Um, and like we, you know, like it's not the poor me car, but it was like, you know, had the the one car, and we always like, you know, people think like, oh, kids walk to school, but like we had to walk a fair distance to get to the school we're going to, and you know, you don't realize that at the time, but I was exposed to like money troubles very early on, and that's one thing I've always wanted to carry carry into um my parenthood journey was like, I'll never expose my kids to that. Yeah, you'll never know. No, because like at the end of the day, if you're eating spaghetti that I've made for you or spaghetti out of a can, you're not gonna tell the fucking difference. But as long as you don't know that that's the problem, yes. Um and yeah, when when I was reading you know, like responses we'd we'd uh to and fro before this and having those conversations, I was just thinking like how how hard it is, and I checked out as well. Like I never wanted to be home, man. Like I used to, you know, it's probably why I was a lot fitter. I used to go running all the time. You know, like I'd go for a run and all and to the point where I'd run and I'd sit at the park on my own. Yeah. Yeah. With headphones on, just like just like for me, it was like this is better than being in that environment. Um and I think, excuse me, a lot of us probably haven't processed that properly um or don't realise the impact that it kind of has. The ones like us who do and know and done that work and are still doing the work, we kind of, you know, like how how how scary it would be for like I think my kids now. I just read a thing today actually where like these these parents in uh fucking like Spain or something, Barcelona or somewhere, took their kids out hiking. Two boys, one was like five, well, maybe four or five, one was like six or seven. Took them out hiking with backpacks and blindfolds on and said, Oh, you need to go find this thing, like it's a scavenger hunt, and they fucking abandoned the kids. And they were found in the in the um, and it broke my heart because I was just thinking of like Atlas and Soul.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

And like I could not do that to them. But it's like in those moments, like how lonely they must have been, like when they found them the kids were screaming, and in the backpack, the parents had packed them like jackets and fruit and shit. Like they'll like these have been abandoned. But you know, that's the extreme of it, but like at times, not saying that my parents did that, they never did that. But like that's how it felt at times. It was kind of like you you and it's hard as a kid because it's like you have to go home. What are you gonna do? Sleep in a fucking yeah, and then you know, they'll search parties out for you, it's not gonna happen. So, like, I I I I I get that. Um how hard it is, you know. And like, did you ever talk to anyone about it or do you just really like internalize it?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah, I think it was well internal. Yeah, it was real internal, especially because you know, when you go and stay over at all mates' houses and you know, dinner's ready and everyone's going to the table, it's kind of like the fuck's going on here? We're not going to the room. Yeah, right. And it kind of felt a bit awkward and uncomfortable for me to do that because I'm like, like, what do we do we talk? Yeah, you know, get my takeaway.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yeah, yeah. No, I I know I know what you mean. And yeah, I think it's that thing of like whenever you're at a friend's house, you see what it always looks greener on the other side. Yeah. Um and it obviously it isn't, but there were some times here I would go to other friends' houses and I'd be like, ah, this is what parents are meant to be doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like my mum always cooked for us, she was a phenomenal cook, and she's loving people, but I think they had their own things and they internalised and ever worked through. Yeah. Um and then, yeah, but like the money thing was a huge um, it was a huge fucking thing. Like I remember yeah, being exposed to it very early on. I'm just like, this is too much for me. Like I'm fucking 13, I shouldn't know this shit. You know, and it's almost like they confine in you to a degree. I don't know about you, but like I found that like my parents sometimes would confide in me, and I'm like, you know, not knowing, not then I would try and be that support person because that's you know, you love your parents, but like I look back now and I'm like, that pressure putting being put on a kid is a lot of pressure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and version of you on the outside, like you're saying you're internalized it a lot. Like what what did that look like on the outside? Was it like you were just a reckless kid? Like were you fucking burning shit? Were you breaking shit? Like all of the above. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's got to go somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and you don't know it at the time. Like it's not the right place, isn't it? Yeah, like why are we doing this? Just okay, yeah, let's let's do you know, this reckless stuff. Um but you obviously don't understand why you're doing it. It's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

We were the well, yeah, I don't know. I it's so hard to there's there's so many things coming up, and I'm trying to to filter through them all. But they're yeah, like you you don't like I said, you don't realise the impact that has on on young people.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

No.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Um and that's why like I think I did a uh a check-in the other today actually just saying like you know, it's been I'm very open about like if it's been a rough time, talk about it. Yeah, you know, because and that's what I want my boys to do. Like Sol's very much a lash out guy. Yeah, like he'll he'll like fucking spart and kick Atlas. And I'm just like, you know, don't like you want to go into that defense mode, but you need to realize like we need to we've had to learn that that's his way of handling things not the right way, but teaching him it's not the right way. So that way when he gets older, those outbursts aren't you know him king hitting someone in the city or out because he can't control his emotion. And I find that with me, like the way I handle things down in pressure, I've gotten better with it, but I I always get to this point where I'm just like I just want to fucking scream or just break something, you know what I mean? Like, do you feel that?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Like, yeah, absolutely. And he's kind of just like, you know, he's like, you know, calm think about, you know, and what so like what do you do now though?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Like if if that if that like hits you now, those moments, um, because you know, like parenthood exposes everything. Like, what do you what do you do to like regulate that?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Um, I just like uh when it happens at the start, I just kind of think, you know, when whenever you react and I learnt this the hard ways hang out for you know two, three seconds before you actually react, and then think about you know how you're gonna react. So I'd just and say no's as well. And and we have I think a really good team doing this that's I need five minutes to you know go do something, like whether it's turn on the TV or just go in the room, put some music on, or just disappear for a little bit. Yeah, she'll you know, obviously take over, and then I'd come back and it's just like a time away for a second. It's like a mental reset. Yeah, yeah. You need it, like even today, I just had it today before. Yeah, I just felt like um you know Alex is teething and I think is a little bit sick from daycare, and it's just like constant screaming, like constant, constant screaming. Like she's exhausted, I'm exhausted. Then Lumi is doing her, you know, three and a half year old, almost four-year-old tantrums. Yeah, and then that's all of it. And then I'm just like, I just I just want to have a and I was I I I uh I heat up some food and I want to go sit on the couches to dine out. She's like, Oh, sit with us at the table. And I was like, then I'm just like, I just want quiet time, but yeah, I should be present.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

It's a bit of conflict.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's right because yeah, I should be sitting with them, I want to spend time with them, but then at the same time, it's like I'm sometimes get so overwhelmed that you just want to go away and probably almost like programming from the kid when you just like you want to check out and go in the room.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Well, it's the easy way. I mean, I we went through some times with Seoul where I just I I threw myself a lot into work. Like, and it was because I thought that was the definition of being a good dad. Just work, work, work, make money, and my wife will be happy. And it's the fucking furthest thing from.

unknown 32:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Like, and and and I think that's why a lot of guys, like uh thinking about it more and more, and I was just seeing I just thought of that, like thinking of it now. I think that's why a lot of guys go, like, oh, you know, she's never happy. It's like because you you try and make her happy with the wrong thing. Same with your family, you're trying to make them happy with the wrong thing. You think money's gonna bring them joy, sitting on the ground or or in that moment, as hard as it is probably for you, is sitting up at that table, they're kind of like, uh I know from my experience, like the kids will it's all everything's normal. Whereas I had, you know, like in that situation for you, if you probably had it removed yourself and they're kind of like, oh hang on, what's wrong with dad? Do you know what I mean? But that's the that's the that's the hard bit with with parenthood. Yeah. Like it's not just fatherhood, it's parenthood, it's mothers as well, like how the hell they do it, like you know, constantly touched out and kids hanging off them and stuff, especially like I don't know if say breastfed, but like with breastfed Atlas, yeah, he still is. Right. And like he just hangs off Shane all the time. Yeah, right. And I'm just like, man, how do you do it? Yeah you know what I mean? Yeah. Um so talking about the younger version of you, um, which you've been uh open about um over the the years and uh leading up to this as well, um, but going into that sort of uh older, younger years, um, which we became mates then, yeah, and I think it looked probably very similar to the two of us. There was probably um seeing everyone and anyone uh doing whatever you wanted to whenever there was drinking, partying, vendors, drugs, whatever, you know, all the stuff you do when you when you're younger and you're you're a bit uh silly and naive, I suppose. Um I mean there's times that I look back and I go, I wouldn't change experiences that I've had for the world. But there are definitely things I would have done different in those experiences. Do you think there was actually something that you were running from? Like did you did you use those things like the partying and and and and being out all the time and that like I know the home stuff wasn't great for you, but did you um like was there something you were actually running from? Like was it all of it, or was there just parts of you that you just thought, well, this has become not a habit as as in like you're a fucking avid uh regular drug user, but like the habit as in like this has just become the regular like Friday night I'm out and they're the things you look forward to, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Like no, absolutely. I it's just I was I was having a chat to um if you remember me.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

So I was having a chat to him the other night and we just kind of said um we were reminiscing on those days and just like you know, what if we just you know got together and travelled or did something different rather than looking forward to that Thursday night or Friday night all the time. Um but to answer your question, I think it was a bit of um both like just that looking forward to it, but also trying to escape because I was just working retail at the time. I didn't really have a full career path then as well. So lacked a lot of direction and um obviously all the stuff with the parents at home. I think my parents may have been split at that time, possibly. I can't remember. It was a couple times where they they were back and forth, um, but yeah, just anything to get out of that house, and then you know, when you're 18 and you're allowed to go, you know, out and and do things, then that was just the next best thing to get at home and do. 100%. Yeah, and yeah, reckless and and all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah, I'd yeah, uh that is like a uh perfect point. Like if you go back and just just like travel, see like you know how good traveling is, like you've done it, we've done it together, yeah. And like how the the core memories from that doesn't mean you can't go and drink and have fun, but you're actually seeing other parts of the world. Like I talk to Shan all the time about this, and I said to her, like, if I didn't fucking go out as much as I did and party as hard as I did, I'd probably have fucking six houses and would have seen, you know, three quarters of the world. But you don't again in hindsight, you don't know that till you're older. But yeah, uh if I could, you know, with my boys, like I hope they don't have as much to unpack as I have over the years. That's my that's my biggest goal with them, is like, you know, obviously the forefronts love and nurture. And you know, I think a parent's job is to raise kids to a point where they're okay to go into the world on their own. And then it sounds horrible. But once I get to a certain age, it's like if you fuck up, you fuck up, I'll be here for you and I'll love you no matter what. But if I if you've done the right foundation from them early on, it should flourish in the older years. Um but that'd be the one thing I'll say to them. Like, if they, you know, go and have those nights out, go and do this, go and have fun, but like don't make it a regular thing. Put that money aside and put it towards buying your first home or go and for a trip overseas, you know, go and go and experience other parts of the world because there's yeah, you don't know where you're gonna end up. Like, I think about it all the time. Like, I've always wanted to go to Italy, I've always wanted to go to Europe, I've never done it. Right. You know, and then like having soul put everything into perspective, like I may never get to do it now.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

May never get to do it. You know, I wanted to be a dad who traveled with my kids.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I can't fucking travel with my kids at the moment. If I do, it's a very short trip. Um and it's definitely not overseas. So if you can do it while you're young, like yeah, I think that's yeah, it's funny that you talk because I I think that all the time. Yeah. Like how how different, you know, you could have been in your young years and still had those those times.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

100%. And I think something we we mentioned as well that you know, but being in the mindset that we were in Reckless, we said like if we did someone would have died, it would have been like a hangover thing, someone has got lost. Yeah, you know, maybe that's why that didn't happen. Yeah, hundred or true, because 100% now we we were.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

We were, yeah, we were.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Imagine doing that in another country and not giving a fuck and just you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Well I think it's a I think it's a thing too, is like the you know, you you you grow up around people, like we've you know, we know of similar people, some are mates, some you've drifted from and I've stayed close to, and other ones you know you're close with and I've drifted from. Like these things, you know, these things happen. But um, yeah, I think it's just this, it's just such a I think about some of the people that we used to hang out with as like a collective, and yeah, how the fuck we didn't get in worse situations than we did.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Um, you know, because it's it's it's this very male bravado thing of like I've got to step in and I've got to save my mates, you know. I'll be the first one in, the last one out. It's like, well, it doesn't, it's not a smart play. You know, it can be stripped away from you very quickly. Like, you know, I've worked now in construction for 15 years, and I've worked with a lot of guys who made one stupid mistake. Like my first ever guest Martin, like he went to prison. Like, you know, from just being dumb and young and dumb and reckless, yeah, you know. Um, and he said to me, he's like it was just an easier option doing that shit because it was a life I was familiar with. Right. Um, and yeah, I I think back all the time, like as much fun as we had, thank fuck we didn't go too stupid.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Yeah. I think we we um we flatted on the edge. Yeah, just didn't yeah, we sort of capped it.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

I felt like I always knew where the where the where the cap was. Yeah. Like I'd get to a certain point of a night or a certain point of like uh boys being away or doing whatever, and I'd be like, if I go to the next point, something fucking stupid's gonna happen. Yeah. So like for you, like when did that lifestyle like obviously stop working? Like, was it a was there like a rock bottom moment where you were just like, What who the fuck am I? What am I doing? Or was it like a slow realization over time that like grow up, I can't really keep doing this?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Yeah, I think it was um um when I had a breakup. Like usually I think that and as as as bad as the time is after those things happen, it's also the best time because you get to, you know, after you have your ups and downs, you get to reflect and then choose to get your next version of yourself is. So that um ended up being in a blessing disguise for me. Um so I think I was 24 at the time, and that's when I started my actual like self-development journey, and then started um yeah, changing sort of how I looked at things and looked at life, and then you know, obviously you guys were still there at the time. And I think at 24 we were a bit more mature than we were at 18, 19, 20. Um and then you you kind of yeah, the conversations are more similar because everyone's starting to move into a similar direction, and especially Jay's always been that grounded person, you know, and and I fed a lot off him when I was going through that journey as we were reading the same sort of books, listening to the same people. Um, so I think that's when it it flipped. So then when the going out, like we still went out and stuff, but it wasn't stupid and reckless as and as often. So it was more scarce, and I started hitting the gym a bit more, focusing on myself a lot more than you know, just work itself. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that's that's what happened after a breakup.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

So that was like so the f out of it all though, like what was the first thing that actually changed? So was it like you've had this breakup? Um was it like you were like, okay, I'm going to not go out anymore, just gonna focus on this, or was it like okay, well I'm just gonna start reading and you kept going out? Like what was the first thing that you actually changed? Like can you can you do it back to them? Like what was it?

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah, I just started I went to the gym straight away. Yeah, yeah. But um through gym, um, because like now I go to gym here and there, but it's not full focused head-in it. But when I was then, it was full focus head-in it, and it just taught me a lot more discipline. And that sort of you know s um spilled over to to the rest of what whatever I was doing on a day-to-day basis. I was, you know, dieting and didn't want to drink as often. So then that cancelled that out. Yeah. And then I started meditating as well. So then I I enjoyed the quiet and I enjoyed being at home.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

How do you find medit like meditation?

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Now if I could get 30 seconds in, I'd be sick.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Yeah, okay. So it works, so like you find it's a really good tool.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Yeah, I think it's a good tool to um I think it's a lot different now than when it was then. Bef back then I was like, you know, I was in NAB in corporate and everyone knew me as Mr. Meditate. Really? So I'd even sometimes when we had our work meetings, they'd be like, hey, can you walk us through a meditation? But now thinking back then to where I'm now, I'm like, how the fuck did I even do that? How was I that still at that point? But now if I you know I've tried, but I just you know, like I said, 30 seconds is like it feels like I start getting anxious because I'm like, what could I be doing in this time?

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Yeah, you know, that's a hard thing. Yeah, yeah, it's a when you're you got so much going on. Um like I know I do, and every time, like even just coming here and doing this, I'm kind of like, fuck, this is the best use of my time. Because like, you know, with soul surgery coming up, um, you know, uh Atlas is young and I'm loving, you know, as much as this whole back fucking debacle has been so tough and it's probably been this has probably been the hardest almost six months of my life. Without a fucking question. Um it it's tested me in ways that I never thought I'd be tested. Um and Being in chronic pain every day is fucked. Yeah. So you you got that, you've then but I'm I've been gifted this luxury at the moment. The silver lining of it is I'm getting to see my youngest go from one to two. Yeah. And I'm getting to see soul. Like I've never, ever had this time with soul before a surgery. Right. Ever. I've always worked up to the day before. Yeah. Yeah. I've always worked up to two days before. And then like when he had his first big one, and this is what I'm saying, like about me not being there and not being present. Um when he had his first big one. I was back at work two days later. He's in a he's in a coma. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Was that by choice? Uh looking back now, I could have easily put my foot down and said, like, fucking jam up here or not. But my thought process at the time was, well, he's there, Shan's there. But then I look back now and it eats at me all of the time. And this is something I've got to start learning to let go of. But like I think back and I'm like, she was there on her own, scared. He, you know, when he's in that, when he was in that coma, they were kind of like, well, he can he knows you're here. He so, and you're not holding him or picking him up because we couldn't. Like he fucking. Um so when he does come out of the coma, he's gonna be very scared. He's gonna be like a little lost puppy. He's jacked up on all these drugs, like even like ketamine and stuff. He was on all these drugs to keep him sedated. Because when they try every so often, he'd fight all the drugs. He was gonna wake up and like thrust and you know, and then that'd pump him full of more and just to keep him at base so he could heal and stuff. But I think back now, and I'm like, yeah, the the I would have just done it a lot different. Do you know what I mean? Um so like I yeah, I've been gifted that opportunity um at the moment, but it's been a fucking hard fucking six months. Like the pain side of things, can't play on the floor with the kids, can't wrestle with them, and yeah. And like you know me, I'm very used to be the life of the party, but like very much like I I pride myself on trying to be a present dad, and it's fucking spin testing, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very testing. But like, yeah, meditation. I've I've tried meditation going back to that story, is I've tried it before, and I just can't do it. Yeah, my mind doesn't shut off. Yeah. Like uh my father-in-law said to me about a month ago, and it's sat with me since he goes, You've got too many browsers open.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

It's a good way of um articulating it.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Yeah, yeah. So props to big Stephen. But that's what he said to me. He goes, You've got too many browsers open. Because he goes, you know, him and I are very similar. Yeah. Um, and he goes, you know, I've been talking about like, well, with my back, I don't want to go back on the tools, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do that, it's too risky, and what the future looks like, and but need to make a certain amount of money because you need to pay bills and we want to buy another house. And it's this whole fucking thing. But yeah, he was like to me, you got too many browsers open. You need to close all the browsers that aren't serving you a purpose and just focus on, even if it's one or two open. But I was like, fuck, that's a screen of putting it, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so now I catch myself on the driving and I'll be thinking about one thing, another thing, and I'm like, fuck, too many browsers open. Start closing it up. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, it's not a bad way to think.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

No, that's the beauty of um, you know, people who are older and they've done it before and lived life before. Like they've given you information that they've probably done, you know, similar things to what we've done in the past, and they've had to figure that out. So having that yeah perspective is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Do you lean do you lean on your parents at all for certain things? Or is it just like it's it's not really a thing?

SPEAKER_01 47:22

No. Not my parents, my father-in-law, yeah, because he's you know he's a wealth of experience. Um I will. Um and you know, the like close mates around. Um that's that's basically it.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

It's hard because I think like I I my my dad, I I go, I talk to a lot, and I value our conversations because he's done a lot of what I've done. Yeah. As in travel for work and be away from family and and do all that type of stuff and try and figure it out on the go. Um, my mum I do speak to. We have a funny relationship. We're very similar but very different, and yeah. We trigger each other quite heavily. But um Yeah, I I sometimes it's hard because I just I when I talk to them, I it's almost like they're telling me what I want to hear.

unknown 48:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Whereas Shans, oh man, fuck, he's a businessman.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Yeah. He ain't gonna tell me what I want to hear.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

He's gonna be like, you know, like he said to me before, he's like, if I was to look at you from the outside in, he's like, this stuff that you do, like the podcast, he's like, I listen to everything, which I was like, well, I didn't think he would. Yeah. But he goes, I do. Um, he goes, and you're really good at it. But you need to figure out how to make sure you're doing that full time.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

He goes, I can't tell you that. Yeah. He goes, because he goes, I he goes, I know it's gonna happen. You go back to construction, you'll work here, there, or wherever, and then you're gonna get to a point where you go, fucking, I've had enough. Fuck every count, which normally is what happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chase the money and go somewhere else, flog your body, and you'll be back to square one.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Um, but I think we need people in our life, and that's why I cherish like friendships like this. I cherish the ones with Jade and I cherish the ones with, you know, I've got a couple other mates, Sam and Luke and stuff, who I really because they won't tell me what I want to hear.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

They'll tell me what, you know, like I was having a really good chat yesterday with Jay about my music stuff and an opportunity that's come to fruition um out of nowhere in the last sort of month or so. And yeah, he sort of said he goes, like, if I was looking from the outside in, he's like, music is your number one thing. You've never failed at it, you've been persistent at it for eight, nine years. And he's like, and you're reaping now, you could potentially reap the rewards of your hard work. Um he goes, and then the podcast is the second thing, that's your that's your next best thing. He goes, but all the other stuff can forget about it.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

But again, it's like, well, until this is making me money or my music's making me like the money I need to, you know, and that's my my approach now and being off the clarity I've gained is like I ain't going if I'm going back to work for someone, I'm purely just going back to do my job and go home. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Until I can make the other things work, you know. So um being a dad. So we've had these conversations before. You've always wanted to be a dad. Yes. Um, and you've said something prior to this that was sort of really stuck with me, and that was when people asked you when you were younger, you know, um, and when you got old, what do you want to do? And you sort of said a you said you want to be a father. Um and you and a great father and a great husband. So you weren't really focused on the career side of things. You weren't focused on the the title, the job. You really just wanted to be a father. Where do you think that came from?

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Um, I think it was I think honestly it was what the everything I lacked from my dad or my parents. I wanted to then do sort of raise the kids how I wanted to be raised in a way. Yeah. Um, but that's that's all I um really thought about doing. Like the work and all that other bullshit really didn't like fuck what for? You know what I mean? Like, where's the and that's why I went through so many different jobs. Like before I started like at NAV was off of one of I kinda remember what was my first career thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Probably selling essential oils.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, who knows? But um I went through about yeah, 20, 22 different jobs before just searching because I was never fulfilled. Like I'm like, what are we doing here? You know, and then you start like as and then when I went to that self-development journey, you start focusing on you know what what what actually matters. Um but then yeah, jobs is always like I I got zero fulfillment from. Yeah. And I always knew somehow like I would get that fulfillment from having a family. And then it just, yeah, that's when the family came. It's like fuck, this is exactly what I've always wanted. But how how did I know that? You know, back then.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

How did I not focus on more like work and job and career? Like I never really gave a fuck about a career.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Honestly, so it's I think it's that thing of there's always that niggling voice at the back of your head that you your your mind knows what you want. But it's about bringing it from the back to the front and then actually doing it.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

So for for you, like the the parent of being a dad, um, like it was probably always going to happen, but it was more a case of like how bad do you want it? One, but two, what are you gonna do to get there? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um and you've got to sort of uh it's those things of like a uh manifesting. Like, I don't want to get all like you know, um, you know, all spiritual and stuff, but it is a massive part. Like I, you know, I was similar to you, always wanted to be a dad. Obviously, both journeys have been completely different in parenthood. Um, there was a period of time there where I was like, fuck, did I did I do this too soon because of what we were put into? Um, or you know, what decisions did I make when I was younger that has fucking caused this for this poor kid, you know, and went through a million different things, but I always knew I wanted to be a dad. So now I'm starting to see, like, yeah, like I I I love being a father, but uh it wasn't at the forefront of my mind. Like, or sorry, not that niggling voice in my mind. The niggling voice was always like you're gonna be like, especially when I discovered that I could was pretty handy at music, it was like you're gonna do music, and it still sits there, yeah. Don't matter what I do, like I do this and I push really hard on this, but the other part of me is always like music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna do it, how you do it. Like, I'm always spitballing ideas. I was sitting here today writing down like, or maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do that. But um, yeah, to I think I think from hearing that, it's probably that you've always had it, and then it's all about like manifesting it and going, that's what I want to do. Because I'm the same man, I like I can't work for people.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

So like you work for yourself now? Yeah. Yeah. So like what do you do? Like, what have what's the like you can feel free to shout out the business? Sure, sure, sure. Um, but like what like you know, like what what what is it that you actually uh like do? Which it sounds terrible coming from me to you, but I just know that there was a period of time where you were sort of going through that phase of like and I maybe you could be wrong here, teasing out what it was you wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

And obviously you've landed on something.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Um like what is it? Um so I do um packaging now, so disposable packaging. Um so anything that you get from a takeaway. Yeah. Um that's what I have been doing for the last five, five or so years now, about five years. Yeah. Um, and then we've got this I truck as well, which is um something kind of on the side of it. Um, but I'm slowly starting to see and realize that the the business just consumes the fuck out of me, man. Like it's gotten to a point where it's just like I kind of want to get rid of it, but then don't as well, because I created this from nothing and I'm proud of it. But at the same time, I'm I'm very um present with myself to see what direction, if I do push it, what direction it's gonna take me, um, which is away from the kids and family. I think I mentioned to you, like if I'm winning at something else, something else is taking a hit, 100%, you know. So and and I always say, like right now, I run the business Monday to Thursday. I don't work Fridays, I spent Fridays with the kids, and that's how I've run it from the start. Um, and as busy as it gets and as hectic as it gets during the week, you know, that's still on me, but as long as Fridays stay Fridays with the kids. And um because I ask myself if if you're on your deathbed, what are you gonna regret more? Like the money and and the business to grow that or the memories with your kids. Yeah. And it always, you know, stays the kids are always gonna be at the forefront of that. And regardless of whatever the business gives me, it doesn't give me that. So I think um, yeah, now I'm I'm kind of at a spot where I'm gonna make decisions um of what I want to do and and what that looks like from now. Yeah. Um, but running the two, like the the truck, the food truck and and the um packaging, it's like one business is is chaotic and stressful, and the other one's like an escape from that business. Oh right. And it's so simple and easy, you know. Um, so yeah, that's just feel about the business, but I I need to uh make some, I think, hard decisions in the next um probably six or twelve months.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Probably decisions that you need to probably back in. Yeah I mean like I think we all get to that point. I've been having this discussion with Shan about I think there comes a point in a father, not every father, but like people like yourself and me who are very we know we're gonna be good at something, we're not gonna succeed at something. There comes a point where, you know, we're the leaders and we need to make that decision. And uh, you know, if we do run at it, it's like, well, you know, for the next three years. I think I think the the the hard the battle is and what I'm gonna get it, gonna get to is that in the next, say you said I'm that's it, the business I'm taking to the next level, is it the three years of doing that, knowing that at the end say it took three years, at the end you know where it's gonna be. And then you can take your foot off the gas and enjoy it. But there's that always that thing in the back of, I don't know, it's in my mind of like time. Like, I'm gonna what if I miss out on this?

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

What if I and then then like going through our journey and the medical side of things, that's the biggest thing that plays on my mind.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

Yeah. When you when you miss it, you you miss it.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Well, it's just like time. Like, what if like you know, we I'm going through this at the moment, like what's coming up for soul isn't a fucking walk in the park. It's risky.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

And if it's the time, if it turns out to be the time that it does go pear-shaped, and I mean very bad, uh, was me working all those hours for someone else and doing all that worth it? You know what I mean? Or was I better off just getting a fucking mundane job to pay bills?

SPEAKER_02 57:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Um and an easy job, but being present more, you know, that's always the battle. Yeah. Um but with with fatherhood, um I've asked I asked Jaden this and I've asked Martin this, and um who were previous guests, but uh like what is it about fatherhood that hits you the hardest emotionally?

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Um I think like even just the way they they look up at you and and they kind of like look for you to guide them and teach them and to be in like a privileged position like that, it's like it just hits different, you know. When you it it's like when you try to explain fatherhood to someone who doesn't. It's like almost near impossible because you just have to feel that. You know what I mean? Um, but yeah, just I know when Lumi looks at me and and just goes, you know, I love you, I miss you, like you didn't want me to go today. She's like, Where are you going? She's trying to run out of the door. You know, all those all those things that I see, like they're they're solely dependent on you. Um I see it with Atlas now. I'm like, sometimes when I feed him breakfast, I'm like, it's so basic, but you're literally growing this little human, you're feeding him, changing it like the shit, nappies and everything. It's like it's wild. But um, I think it's a very privileged um position to be in, to to be a dad and a parent, and that's that's probably what hits hardest the most.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

I I I've literally said to Shan probably about like a about two weeks ago, I said to her, like, I'm gonna miss those little footsteps running down the hallway. It's like Soul now is very much like he doesn't really he he's very playful, but he's in his own way. But Atlas man and you forget those little footsteps, and I think it's because I didn't uh have that as much with Sol, because you know, again, you know it's like you first you go into dad mode, you're like, I gotta work, I've got to do this. But with Atlas, like I'm I've been so exposed to it, I'm like, that's the one thing I'm gonna miss the most. You know, like it's you're right, you can't you can't fucking explain it to people. Yeah, it's yeah, it's that thing of the the you're literally their world. Like I've uh you know, like I've always for a while now, a long time I've lived by this mantra that like your spare time is their childhood.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

So you know, if you work nine to five from you get home at 5 30, from 5 30 till 9 30, Monday to Friday, that's their childhood. Yeah. Yeah. You know, 100%. And you know, they're the weekends of their childhood. And it is very hard, and it's easy for me to sit here, and it's easy for us to sit here and say, because you know, if we were sitting here trying to have the conversation with the kids around, yeah, this we would have been here ten minutes ago and it would have been, you know, someone with a busted lip and someone's fallen on something. But when you sit there in those moments, I think yeah, the moments for me that hit um the hardest emotionally are my it's probably my quiet time. That's what hits me the most emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Um when I'm with them, yes, there's a lot of things that catch me and there's things that have caught me off guard. But when I sit there and I th that I just think about them, it's just like it kills me emotionally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's just like everyone, you know, kids are a beautiful thing, even if they're not yours, you know. They're they're they're beautiful little creatures that that that deserve the world. But when they're your kids, yeah, it's it's different. It's unmatched, man. You know, like it's unmatched, and it's such a, yeah. I've caught myself so many times like, you know, just a a a mess, just thinking about, you know, you you you you start to think about what their life's gonna look like and and you know, what are they, you know, you think they're gonna be good at this, and then and then they're not, but then they flourish at this, and then you're like, fuck, I'm gonna have to with Soul. I'm like, you know, I always wanted a kid who was very sporty, it sounds so selfish. I just that's I grew up playing sport.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

Um and soul's the furthest thing from limitations-wise, obviously. But then I look at Atlas and I'm like, he's so sporty, and but like Soul's so theatrical. Like they've got the DJ decks up there, like Sol will spin on them for hours. Oh, yeah. Loves it, loves it. Like music, it there was a point that he for he fill fills my emotional cup. It sounds so horrible because you shouldn't have to. But like when it comes to the music side of things, like I played him one version of a song on Spotify, and I was um, I shouldn't do this because I'm a musician, but I was illegally ripping music off the internet, um, you know, off YouTube, but he's he's got a Yoto player, so I make him his own cards so I don't have to have my phone. He can have you ever seen a Yoto player? No, so it's like this fucking they're Unreal Man, like you know, if Yoto, if you want to sponsor me, please do. Um there's the like this little box, um, and you can get them a small one or a big one, and you buy all these different cards. So got like the Beatles album, Queen, and then they've got like Thomas the Tank Engine, Disney movies. You put the card in and it they're all different. So one's like a music card, displays like 12 tracks. Right. Other ones would be like storybooks. So you put them on to be like five minutes stories. Yeah, unreal. So anyway, I couldn't find the version of Spotify on YouTube, so I just got the same theme song. Yeah, he was like, It's different, Debda. I'm like, how's it different? And he's like, listen. Yeah. And I'm listening and I'm going, no, it's the same thing. He goes, No, hang on, listen, listen. So I'm sitting there, and there was like uh there was a section in it that was like it was from the Looney Tunes. There was a horn section in the one on the Oto and not on the other one. And he picked that up. And he picked that up. That's crazy. And I'm just like, How good's that? You know, like it's it's so like, yeah, it's those little, like I was saying, those moments where you and I thought about that for like days on end. I'm like, how switched on this boy is musically and intellectually to pick that up that I couldn't even you know, I'm gonna need to up my game in production because if I can't pick that up, yeah. It's um yeah, just that they just I don't know, man. It's you like you said, it's just when they look at you and the the feeling of it, like you know, you it makes the best of us emotional. No, 100%. Yeah, but um we'll go to the I wanted to touch on the the foundation I've got written here, the foundation, which is your yourself and your wife. Um so you guys go way back, yeah, grew up in the same town in South Africa.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

Yeah, so she was um we found out this later on, but um there was like my street was kind of like a main street, and then hers was literally up the road, turn right and left, and that's where she she um grew up and in the community like the our like my grandpa knew her dad's dad and her dad's dad. So um when we when we came to Australia, we came to Melbourne, they moved to Sydney, and then naturally you like you you want to connect with people who you know because you're like you know, you don't know anyone else. Yeah. So every Christmas they used to drive down and spend Christmas at my uncle's house. Um and that's when we became, you know, kind of mates or family friends or whatever it is. Um so that's where it our journey started with the friendship first, and funnily enough, we used to be like we were quite close and we used to share, you know, everything about each other's lives and you know, with advice and you know, recklessness and this and that, whatever. So it's funny when we got together, it was everything was already on the table. Yeah, okay. There's no skeletons, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

Yeah. And so you would but you you've told me this before, but when you started dating, you pretty much said to her, and I've got it here. Yeah if you don't want marriage and kids, yeah, let's not waste our time. Yeah. Um did you look at that at the time as like a certain level of confidence, or did you look at that at the time of like, I know that she could potentially like she's gonna be the one, but if it's not gonna be on the same page, it's not gonna work. Do you know what I mean? Was it more like a confidence thing? Like some guys were like, you know, if you're not gonna fucking do this and that, I'm on. But it was a confidence? Well, uh probably probably a sense of confidence and you knowing what you wanted.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

But at the same time, like, were you sort of hoping that she would just go, oh no, I do want that? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, you kind of get what I mean? Like if she had said, I think I was like when you when you were telling me that, I was kind of thinking, like, what if she said no?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

Yeah. I think um where I was at at the time, I was extremely happy. Like I was probably the happiest I've ever been, ever. And when she sort of came into that, I was kind of like this needs to top this happiness. You know what I mean? So whether it's didn't work out I still would have been like I was in a sick place, you know, and then who knows what would have been after. Yeah, okay. You know what I mean? So, but at the same time, we went through like a bit of a hard patch, you know. She um I think from that friendship, transitioning from that friendship into like more relationship, at the start, she sort of like we we started seeing each other, you know, and it felt it felt good. And it went for like I don't know, maybe months. Yeah. And then when it came to the committing side, I think she got pretty scared off from it. So she kind of stepped away. And then this is long story short, obviously, but then I got back to that place where it was like it was like that heartbreak again. Yeah, got the same feeling, and then I was pissed off myself because I'm like, I went from such a good place to then cool, this is working, and then she's not in for it anymore. And I'm just like, what the fuck was that for? Then so then um I remember I sent her roses and I was just like, yeah. Because I tried, I tried to be like, yeah, what's going on? I thought we had a thing. So I sent her roses and that was gonna be it. Like that was a goodbye, and I wasn't in the contact with her again. And then from that, she ended up contacting me.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

And then said, okay, you know, and we spoke about it, da-da-da. And then that's when I said, Look, this is either gonna happen or not, because what we're not gonna waste each other's time yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

Yeah. And how did she respond though, with the like, if you don't want marriage and you don't want kids, yeah. There's the there's the door.

unknown 1:07:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

I don't mean it that legit, but you know what I mean. Yeah, you know, yeah, because that's like that's a that's a tough thing to like I don't know, you know, you know, I think a lot of people don't probably have that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

And then they get to the point where it's like, and then I feel like there's a certain level of resentment that one side carries. So it's like, you know, if you if you say you didn't want children, she did, and then you're kind of like, nah, I don't want to kind of cool, blah, blah, blah. And then you end up giving in because you you like we're saying before, you think filling their cup's gonna fill yours. Yeah. And it doesn't, then there's like a level of resentment you're gonna carry going. Yeah, well, I didn't want the kid, or and it's such a horrible place because a child shouldn't be in that. Yeah, yeah. But um, like yeah, how did she respond?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

Um, from memory, like it wasn't that was just normal. Yeah, but I don't know, because it was like we had so much of a um a foundation before that where it was maybe it was just like I've I've told you everything else. This isn't such a big thing. Yeah, like it might have been different with my ex or like someone else that I just found, you know, and we started dating, it might have been different. But at that time I was very clear on what I wanted, how I was at the time. And I think she was like, Yeah, like wasn't scared away from it or anything. That's awesome. Yeah, so she wanted the same commitment and then but like we didn't know when we were gonna have kids. It was just not it was not let's date and try. You know, it was just like along the way, this is what we're gonna do. And if you like that's part of your plan as well, it's thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

So then the so obviously all relationships have up ups and downs, but was there a point where yours went down?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think it was um this is when I first got into business. Um it like consumed me fully. Um, this is prior to Lumi. Yeah. So consume me fully, and um we I think we kind of lost sight of our relationship in a way. Um so that that drove us fully apart. Yeah. And um, we kind of broke up at a stage just because we we were just clashing and everything just felt off. So um, yeah, we sort of broke up and then everyone started getting involved and you know, this and that, and I was just like, fuck. Then it got too much. So I went to South Africa for I think four weeks. Oh, I remember that. Four or five weeks. Yeah, I remember. Because I'm just like catch your fucking leave me away, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

And it was because it was so loud. Was that a good was that like sorry to cut you off quickly, but was that like a big cultural thing where it's kind of like you need to repair this? Do you get what I mean? Like yeah, some cultures are like that. Like Jan's family like the uh the Italian side very much. Like, yeah, if if that happened, like you need to fucking repair it. Yeah the old school way. Is that what it was? Like people just throwing their two cents in who didn't need to. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:15

Yeah, 100%. And it was like people like people who I didn't even know would know the situation were calling me and hey, you know, it's just uh I'm just like fuck, you don't even know what's going on, type thing. So yeah, I went to South Africa for a bit and then um I was just trying to figure out what I want, and then um this is gonna be fucking, yeah, it was bad at the time, but she told me on a particular day, she's like, I need an answer now. Because I told her, I go, if you're gonna rush me for an answer, um, it's gonna be no. Yeah. You know? And I said, you know, kind of don't ask me for an answer yet and just give me my time. But then she she asked me for the answer and it was Valentine's Day on the day. Oh yeah. So then it was no. No, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then um when I moved back, sorry, not when I moved back when I came back from South Africa, I think a week later we went into COVID lockdown. So then it was like ISO by myself. Yeah. And she I think she um because she moved down from Sydney. I don't know if we if you knew that or not. Yeah, so she moved down from Sydney um for our relationship. So she didn't really have anyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

So um I think she either went back to Sydney or she was with a mate for a bit, and then because I was like I was alone, that's when I spiraled. Like I went real hard into um, yeah, I think I was way depressed. Yeah, I think I was kind of depressed before that with the business running me down and then the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

But it brings it all to the surface, then.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

Yeah, man, that was hectic. So then um yeah, I saw um I saw a psych, um jumped on ADs for a bit. Yeah. And um I think it was uh Jamie uh hit me up during that time. And because he lived around the corner and we were in that that bubble bullshit. So um yeah, he was actually there in those dark days. Yeah. Um and we just you know, we just kick it around the fire and you know, talk. But he never asked about it, which I I respect a lot. That's what you need.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

Sometimes you just need people to just sit there and listen.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

Yeah, yeah. That's all he did, and it and then you know, later on, like way later, then I kind of opened up about it. And he said the same thing, he goes, Look, I obviously I I know the situation, but I was never gonna like I was waiting for you to it's on his place. Yeah, if you wanted to chat about it, cool. If you didn't want to chat about it, cool. Like I'm just here to kick it, yeah. Type thing. Um, so then we like that was meant to be done between me and Say. So I can't even remember exactly what point we kind of said, you know, let's let's try this again. Um but those ended up that ended up being one of the best things for our relationship because it put everything into perspective.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

And I suppose finding the right partner is so like crucial too. Yeah, like you, you know what it's like, being a guy, yeah. You hear so many, like, not horror stories, but you hear so many things of guys who are just like you know, the ball and chain or the missus is pissing me off. And don't be wrong, there's times where Shannon shits me and I shit her, like, and there's probably times where you annoy Say and Say annoys you, but finding the right one who'll stick by you, especially if you're someone who's trying to build something, that that's like you hold on to them, you know. But to get to be able to step away, and I think the a big takeaway from that um is people need to realise that sometimes by them getting involved, it's actually far more detrimental, like to have that space to yourself. Now, spiraling down and getting depressed and stuff, that's you know, props to you for going and getting the help and support you needed. Because a lot of people don't. Um, but like people getting involved, they think it's helping and it's not. But what actually does help, and the the big takeaway from that is exactly what Jamie did. Like, and that's and I I find that usually comes from people who aren't family. It's usually like, and sometimes it can might not even be friends, sometimes it can just be a co-worker, it can be just someone you you randomly meet as well. But like props to him for having the awareness.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:12

And I think that's because he would probably want the same, you know, and it's one of those things, is like people don't put themselves in in the shoes of the other person. Yeah, sometimes they're they're too hard to fit on.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:23

You know, I've yeah, we I've had that conversation so many times with people, like there's a core group of people that I can reach reach out to. Um, and you know, you're one of them. If I ever do feel like I I need to just chew the fat, I can. But yeah, because I know the space would be held there for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

But like you that's yeah, you you need to have that because like yeah, it's it's sometimes what we need is a set of ears to just listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:47

Listen, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:47

Yeah. I've seen that so many times over the years. Some guys who, you know, um, like I talked about Martin, like there was a point in the conversation with him and I, and he said, he goes, I remember a time where he goes, you would just listen and listen and listen, and then one day you just said, You ever thought about fucking not blaming anyone else? And just blame yourself? Yeah. That's what I said to him one day, because I'd had a pretty good day at work, and yeah, I was like, you know, been like the foreman I'm just like fucking every cunt's doing my head in. Yeah, everyone's doing my fucking head in, everyone shut up. And he said it to me, I was like, Stop blaming everyone else, start fucking looking at yourself. And he was like, There's like a light bulb moment. You know, because I'd sat there and listened for so long, and I know that like either someone's or like organically going to figure that out for themselves, but some people don't. Like you, I think part of a big part of life is like people's skills, yeah. And I've always prided myself on I can read people really well, and I can get along really well with the majority of people. So I'm just like, you're fucked with them on the and you've seen that over the years, like I don't like this guy fucking money. Um but yeah, it's it's holding that space. So like props to him, and yeah, um, I'm so stoked that it worked out for you guys, and obviously you are too, like you're a beautiful family now. Yeah, yeah. Um and you know, say he's a a lovely, lovely woman as well. Like, you know, she's got good nature, she's head on her shoulders. Um but like did you guys sort of when you got back together, just sort of went, listen, we're doing this on now terms and fuck everyone, fuck all the noise from the outside.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:07

That's exactly that that's why I think that's one of the best things that happened because perspective and what's really important is us two, you know, and then you get very selective of where you're sharing your energy and and who those people are because they ultimately an extension of who you are. 100%, you know, they they tell your circle. Yeah. Um, but then I also think part of your circle is um yeah, like the the podcast, for example, what you're doing. If if I'm tuning into that in the car, those are the conversations that are going into my head as well, and that's gonna go back to my family. So the people that we we chose to be around were very uh we were very selective of of where we spread our time and who that was with. And then um, yeah, with us, we just you know, it was uh we were the priority for ourselves. And then that just like that built a stronger foundation for us to be parents because um yeah, it it it really just it shows and as well as like with the business as well. Like if it wasn't for her, there's no way I'd be able to do the business at all. Yeah, you need that support part. Yeah, no, no chance, yeah. Um, and I I look over a lot of things that she'd catch up on the details, yeah, and things that I just don't have the patience to fix, she'll fix it for me. Yeah, that's awesome. So there's no like, you know, there's no eco si or any of what I was privileged enough to do and pursue because that's what I wanted without her support and without her um yeah, yeah guidance. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

Yeah, crazy. That's what but that's what you need, man. You you you need that because then you to step into that, you know, that parent um parenthood journey is something that you sort of step into and you all of a sudden, you know, it you know, we've touched on before, you say it's it's a challenge and you still figure it out. But if you've got the right partner, you're figuring it out together, you know, each day. Um with that though, like you know, you you have said it's a challenge and you are still figuring it out. And like sort of talk me through that. Like I know you've sort of said, like, am I being too harsh when I discipline? Yeah, um, am I taking my stresses out of them? Am I giving them enough time to learn without getting frustrated? Yeah. Are my expectations too high? Um, and you know, when your patients wear thin, it's not their fault, they're just kids. Yeah. They're all things that go through my mind. So, like, talk me through, because it's refreshing that it goes through yours as well. Yes. Like, you know, where where does I suppose all that self-doubt around how you are being as a farmer come from?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

Um, I think it's more like a reflection. Yeah. So I think um uh I think I heard you um speak about it one of the early episodes, but it's um uh equanimity, which is calm and the chaos. Yeah. That's one. And then um the other thing is metacognition, which is thinking about thinking. So everything I do, even if it's like, you know, conversation that I had with you outside with out of this, I'd always think about like, you know, how could we have done whatever it was different or sort of said something, you know, all that stuff. So after I, you know, crack the shit at Lumi or something, like if I yell at her and I know that I'm frustrated because of work, like I will lose sleep that night. Like I l and I can't like internally, I'm just I'm just like fuck, like why couldn't you have not just taken that two, three seconds that you know you should take before reacting? 100%. So it I think it's yeah, it's it's something that I don't know if it'll ever go away. Like maybe it will get better. Yeah. Um but I think life is always gonna give you stresses and you just gotta kind of manage that, but try to keep in the forefront of your mind that it's don't take it out of them if you can help it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, calm being calm in the chaos is like yeah, like I've said before, like stillness reveals direction and being calm in the chaos. If you can be calm when everything else is being loud, that it's hard to put into practice. Yeah, you know, and then my one thing I would say is fatherhood's only hard for those who are actually good at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:07

Like it's it's it's true. Like it's only hard for those who are good at it. If you're bad at it, fatherhood can be the easiest thing if you just neglect and uh and prioritize yourself. Now, I speak about prioritizing oneself because you need to to grow, but it's also not a one-sided affair. Yeah you know. Um so, like I said, like I have the self-doubt so as well. Like the same thing, I'll I'll say something or like, especially during this period of time with my back, man. Fuck, it's been so funny. Like we we were we all got sick the other week. It was the first time as a whole family we'd been sick. And um I said to Shan uh one day, because we we're at my parents' house at the moment, like as we once we'd sold the house, we're in this like weird sort of like limbo stage. Um, and that's what I was saying to you prior to this, and we'd probably get to go down to Phillip Island and stay down there for family time and stuff, but um we're all sick, and so like you've got my parents who are trying to do the love and nurturing thing of like, oh, what what do you need when and then excuse me, I've got the kids, like you know, Atlas is coming in and going, Dada up like onto the bed, and I'm in fucking pain, and I'm laying on the bed and I'm sick and I'm just uh and I'm texting Sharon, she's like, Is there anything I can do to help? And I was just like, Everyone leave me the fuck alone. Yeah, and and people would probably hear that, or people will will would have, you know, if you if you ever seen the text message, that's literally what it said. Yeah. And the what people don't realize is we're at a point in our relationship where we're that comfortable with one another to have that, and she knows that by me doing that um stops me from having those self-doubt moments. Because I know if I push myself to go out there and be present while I'm like, you know, trying not to fucking throw my guts up and my back's fucked. And you know, so if I tried like my um by saying to her, like, just give me some fucking space, it um yeah, made like a fucking huge difference. But if I had gone out there myself, doubt would have crept in straight away. Yeah. And then I lose sleep. I do it all the time, and I've had nights where like I lay there in bed and I'm like, fuck, I shouldn't have spoken to them. Yeah, yeah. Um but it's again, it's about being able to um, yeah, like I said, knowing that being calm in the chaos and being able to be still is, you know, is such a beautiful thing. Yeah. And I think it's probably because like got people like us are so determined um not to repeat what we've experienced.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:37

I go straight back to there. Like when I do raise my voice with my kids, or Shannon and I very rarely argue, but if we do have a little bicker or like in and it's never been in front of the kids, but I always think like, shit, I hope they didn't hear that.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

Or I hope they didn't see that. And then like I know that like there's beauty in repairing it as well. Like if you can repair in front of the kids, yeah. You know, like I'll get down on soul's level. Atlas is not that, not not as much, but like soul will get down to like, I'm really sorry, mate, data was frustrated before. And then it's almost like, yeah, cool, what are we doing next? Yeah, but if I don't do that, it just plays on Monday. Yeah, and like um, so things that you do are like that take five minutes, just yeah, take, yeah. You know, like you we we sort of go that thing of uh when I was working, Shane would say to me, like, what capacity are you at today? And I'd be like, 20. Yeah. And she'd be like, and then she'd be like, okay, she knew that like 80% she's gonna take on. Yeah. Um but it's always hard when it's like, what are you at? It's like 10. And it's like, what are you at? It's like 10. Yeah. But they're the but they're the moments that like really, you know, like we we don't like having TV on. That's our big thing. Yeah. Um and but like it gets to a point where we both just sort of look at each other and we're like, fuck it, they can watch 40 videos today just so we can breathe. Yeah. Um so is like, is there anything that you guys sort of uh any other things like as a couple things that you do apart from like the five minutes, or um is there anything that you do away from everyone when that self-doubt creeps in? Like if you're on your own in the car and you start overthinking, like what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:07

Yeah, mine's uh music. Yeah. Yeah. Music um changes the whole vibe of everything, you know. Um it's funny you mentioned that that that percentage thing because we did that for a bit as well. Yeah. Me and say. Um, but yeah, coping thing is yeah, I'll just chuck on music really loud. So if it's not in the car, it's in my AirPods, and I'll just like mute it and chuck it on. Yep. And I don't hear anything else, and that will set me up like a few minutes. Yeah, and be good. Yeah. It's crazy. Music changes the the whole game, man. It does, you know? Yeah. It's a very important thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:43

Um that's why you know you're in it. So you Yeah, I just I know I know like that's what I mean. It's always been that thing in the back of my mind, and like it's almost like a sickness, I would say. Like, I haven't DJ'd in years and years now. I want to get back into it, and I've always kept my decks. And so now I'm like, you know, thinking of do I start doing like sort of an entertainment business down that Phillip Island way where I can start doing like functions and weddings, things that I always said I'd never do. But then they would pay the bills enough money to allow me to be home pretty much all the time, except for like one or two days a week. Yeah. So if I can do that and make it a regular thing and I'm home more, which means then I can work on my craft mall, which means I can get more music out. So that that the sort of the planning stages, but like for me, if I don't do my music, fucking spiral. Yeah, yeah, very easily. Yeah, and it's and then again, it's very hard to want to do it because it's such a isolated, selfish thing. Like it's not like it's something I can do with the kids' play. Yeah, no, yeah. It's like I need to be alone, like in this space, or I need to be in another studio, or I need to have no one home to do it. But um yeah, music's a beautiful tool.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:50

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's it's I'm it's fortunate enough that when I'm in those zones, it doesn't take long. Like it's probably just one track. Yeah, okay. And you're good, you reset. Yeah. And and you go back. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:02

Well, it's good that you can regulate yourself like that. Yeah. A lot of people can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:05

No, I think it's yeah, it's a lot. Obviously, it wasn't just the first thing that helped. Yeah. You know, I think um, I think uh as as I went on that journey to to be like, you know, still not reactive to to a lot of things and working on anger management and things like that. It just like that was never the answer to anything. Like, you know, sometimes you get angry and you want to punch something or break something, but when logically what's it achieved? It's nothing. Yeah. You know, so you sort of get to a level where it's like like yelling at Loomis is not gonna work. Yeah. So try something else, and then yeah, thankfully that I found that and that just worked.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:44

Yeah, because I always found it sort of like a uh I was thinking like it's sort of like a cup of soft drink, and you fill it up and then you've got like all the foam comes to top and it stops, but you've still got that much of the cup left, and then someone else fills it up a bit more and the phone goes up and stops, and then you get to a point where there's nowhere for the foam to go. Um, so my thing is like the way I I view it in that regard is before people keep trying to add to it and adding fuel to the fire and adding more drink to my cup, I'll take a sip of it, which will be like swallowing the hard pill. Like, okay, remove this, this, and this, then all of a sudden your cup's a lot more empty, then you can let that build back up. And it's not may not be the healthiest way. Yeah, that's how I view it. Like, sometimes I'd look at I'd view myself and I go like, fuck, I'm nearly full, nearly at the brim.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:27

So then it's like, all right, well, you know, and I'll say to Shannon, I'm like, hey, tomorrow, just give let me get up at whatever time and just let me go to the gym in the morning on my own time instead of having to go at five or four, let me go at like nine in the morning while I'm off. Yeah. And then um I'll be all good. I get home and I'm fucking sweet. Um you you both like as a couple, um, you know, both intentionally giving uh the kids sort of simple things that you I suppose you didn't get. Um You know, tell them you love them every day, um, showing gratitude, spending time with them. Um, does it feel weird doing those things and the things that you were probably never given? Like, did it come naturally? Were you just like, this is easy? Giving them the time, giving them all these things um because you wanted that, or do you find it um hard because you're like, Well, I didn't get that? Do you kind of get what I mean? Like some people, some people are it's like those older generations, it's like, well, welcome to parenthood. Yeah, it's like, no, I fucking get it, but maybe help me out here, or you know what I mean? Like, you know, there's there's always that thing of like people, well, people don't have the capacity people don't have capacity to give a fuck about how hard it is for you. Yeah, then when you find people who can, they're the ones you hold on to. Yeah, yeah. Like with our journey, there's so many people who once I get into the nitty-gritty of how it actually is, how fucked up and hard it is, people just zone out. It's kind of like, oh yeah, but you know, lucky he's not in a wheelchair. It's like it's the shittest answer you can give me. Do you know what I mean? Because yeah, so like did with with like you know, you not having things that were modelled for you when you were young, do you find it um easy doing what you're doing? Or do you find did you find it hard?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:07

Um I think I find it uh I think I find it easier because I think um it's just who we are as people now. Yeah. So we're like when Yeah, we we like she had a very similar upbringing to me. Yeah. So it's kind of a mutual thing where it's just like yeah, you want to give them something that you didn't get as well. But I feel like us being the the nurturing and loving people we are, it just it kind of is the next step anyway. Like we're not doing this just because of that's part of it, but we also like that's what we want to do. We want to give them that love and and and affection and let them know that we're there for them and give them that confidence to you know step out and and sort of have that confidence themselves to do whatever they want.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

Write your own script. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:53

Exactly right. So yeah, it's not I don't find it that hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:57

Did you has there been a moment in your journey thus far that you're kind of like, we're doing the right thing? Like we're doing it the right way every day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

Yeah. We're just like, because it's it's one of those things where you you get to be a parent once, and the only time you're really gonna see if it worked or not is when they're older, living their life and doing their thing. So you kind of always for us we're or for me especially, I'm just like, what like where do you even start in such a big landscape? So it'd be like, what foundations do you want to instill in them to then help them with that? Yeah, because once they're older and done, you don't get to go back and and change shit 100%, you know. So the things that we um we're doing with Lumi now is we've taught her um like reward um and chores. So she does like you know, unpacks her bits of the dishes, yeah, the plastic stuff, and we give her like money. And it's like, yeah, it's 10.15, 20 cents. Yeah, like I'll give her a 10 cent, a five cent, twenty cent because it's three coins because like gets excited, you know. So then we started putting into a money box, and then when we go to to the shops, like we let her choose something to kind of um teach her that um you know you gotta work and get rewarded for something. And and that goes with with just like snacks and screen time or whatever, like do a little bit of something to to earn that. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:25

There's like consequences, good and bad consequences for the actions you take. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:30

And uh and that's one of those things where I'm like at the same time, she's very young to be doing this. Do I want to spoil her and just let her chill, give her screen time and give her everything she wants and spoil her because you only get that one chance, or well that's a that's a hard thing because I think some people uh especially you know, it could be different for you, but grandparents just think it's like a free ticket to the kids doing whatever they want.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:51

And it's like it's so confusing for them too, because it's kind of like, well, Nan and Pop or grandma and grandpa are saying that, like, yeah, we can like I can do this, but then you're saying no, I can't, and it's like it can become quite conflicting. I know with us, like um with Sol, like he'll carry on, especially around my my mum and dad. He won't really do it with anyone else. Yeah, with my mum and dad, he carries on.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:14

Fucking it drives me drives me insane, man. Like, but anyway, what I'll what I've found, which it took me a long time to get to this point, because it used to just be like, well, if you do that, you're not getting that. And it was like, and Shan used to be like, Oh, I don't want to be that parent. And I kept thinking, like, fuck, just let me parent how I want to parent to her, but then I started to realize like there's truth in what she says. So now instead it's like, instead of just putting it all on him and saying, You're not getting that because of you, I'll say to him, How we act now. So instead of saying how you act, I'll be like, How we act now defines what happens next. And he'll like, as soon as he hears that, like the first time he was like, What the fuck do you mean? Yeah. But then I started breaking it down for him. Yeah, but now I get now he gets it, and he's and he'll go, Oh, so if I do this now, like if I keep carrying on the way I am, um, or throwing myself around on the floor, having a tantrum, I'm not gonna get my uh Yoto forever. He said, I never said that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:08

That's where you're worrying about something that hasn't happened. Yeah. All I'm saying is how you carry yourself right now and how we as a collective act right now, yeah, will depict what happens.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:17

And so like now he'll just be like, Well, what will happen if I stop? And I go, Well, if you stop, then we can all pack up together. Yeah. Because he finds it very overwhelming. Right. Like the if I say pack up, it's like it's so hard. And it's like, okay, I'll help you.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:29

But um, yeah, I found that that works, you know, and that's it and again, but I have that internal conflict of like, is he too young for me to be telling him this? Yeah. But then there's the other side of it, it's like I do see kids that I grew up with who probably never got told that and they turned out to be fucking right cunts. You know what I mean? Like little shits, man. And it's and they were the ones who would like bully people and like you can't avoid it, but uh pick on people and had no morals, and I'm like, you you you it's it's finding that balance. Like, do you find it hard to find that balance?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:58

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it's like it's a constant and never-ending thing that's just you're always you know second guessing and trying different shit all the time, but then ultimately what you know, you're doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:12

But do you do you guys ever find that like you you or you probably don't now, maybe or could be wrong and you're on to your second child, but do you find like early days or even now you still clash about things, like say sort of parents one way and then you go in another way, and you're kind of like Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:28

I'm a very stubborn parent, like with um I guess uh discipline in a way. And so if if Lumi's having dinner, this is what's dinner. If you don't want to eat it, you can go to bed. I'm the same. Starving. And because I tell her, I go, This is dinner, your next meal's breakfast. You know? So and I'll let her go to bed and I'll force her to sleep. Like, don't say, Oh my tummy's hurting this and that, because he had the opportunity. 100%. I don't care. Yeah. Wake up in the morning, have breakfast, but say is the option, she'll take her out of bed and let her have cornflakes or whatever. And it kind of undoes, it confuses, I feel. Um, and same with rewards, like I won't just give her I do occasionally slip up, yeah, depending on how you know my stressed I am in the day, just like just to shut him up, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. But most of the time I'm just like, you know, you're not having chocolate for breakfast type thing. But then say has our own stresses, and then she has yeah, atlas in the morning and she gets overwhelmed. So to shut up, Louis me sometimes to just give her a sugar cookie, and then I'll just be like, Well, what the fuck? Yeah. You know, but yeah, we're both guilty of doing that at different times and hundred percent on what capacity each of us are at.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:39

That's what you know the well that that that's the hard thing, and it's like it's like I was saying, it's about knowing each other, which takes time. You know, like you I I I used to be the same, like I am stubborn too, and so I will do that all the time. And he's like, Oh, I don't want that. And I'm like, Well, he'll be like, What else have we got? That's what he does. He goes, Dada, what else you got? And I go, and he'll have like, I don't know, like uh steak and olives on his plate left. And I'll be like, What's left on your plate? And he'll be like, steak and olives. Okay, we got steak and olives, and then he'll be like, But I don't want that. And I'm like, Well, that's what you've got, you know. And it's just and it's almost like I think about it now, talking about it, I'm kind of like, I'm fucking having I'm debating a four-year-old, but like but then Shan's very much like, well, so there's yoga, and there's and I'm like, No, like I think that's because that that's how I was brought up. Yeah, like it was like, you know, my mum has always said, like, you don't know how hard it is to think of a different meal to cook every night for your family. Yeah. And I think now it's like we eat the same thing all the time, pretty much, because it's easy, but then you have your days where you're like, oh, I fucking eat that, man. Like, you know, we've had steak and salad for fucking five nights, you know. I'm I'm withering away here, yeah, you know, but then um, but it is, it's it is uh it's so difficult. And because the I find the mother's home with the kids more, it's almost like you you want to trust their decisions more because you but you also don't get a say in a large chunk of the day. So then when you do come home, it's kind of like I just want what's the easiest thing. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Um and uh when we were speaking prior to this again, you were saying that you you had sort of a difficult conversation with with say around certain behaviours and habits that had to change um if the relationship was going to continue, probably prior to kids, but do you still have those like now? Like, and if you do, like what's you know, how do you build up the courage to sort of say that? Like I've had to say that to Shan. Yeah. And it's the most it sounds it's proposing to her was the hardest thing, but telling her, hey, I want a parent on the same page and I feel like you're against me. It's a fucking hard conversation. So like how do you how do you navigate that conversation?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:49

Um I think it's just some things just need to be said. And the longer like you ponder on it and and keep it internally, that's when shit, you know, kind of uh blows up at a later stage. So I think we're we have a good understanding of very being very open with each other and having open conversations. So there's a lot of people around that stay together just because it's the easier option, yeah, rather than you know, and we're on the page that you know if things aren't going the way and we're not a line aligned with life. Yeah, we need to do what's best for both of us and our family, and if that means splitting up, it means splitting up. Yeah, you know, um, because I can't think of anything more toxic than trying to make something work that's not working, and then it's just you both living separate lives and trying to parent at the same time. For me, I don't think I don't see it working for us. So that's why I say, you know, if if um you know these behaviors don't change or whatever the it is, yeah, like we we you know, we need to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:57

Yeah. Then you've got to look out for your well being and then at the I mean they don't like hearing it. Um, but it's it's from a place of love. Absolutely. Excuse me, at the end of the day, like that's how I shape those conversations. I mean, we've had our moments early on where I thought we wouldn't last. When we first had something, I was like, no, it's not gonna work. I'm not handling it well, you are, you're exhausted. We've got all these medical appointments, so she was having like 15 to 20 appointments a month. And it's like you're doing all that on your own, I'm shutting myself off to work and everything. But one of the best things I ever did was go and speak to someone and and you know, sort myself out, but it still doesn't and then I was able to navigate those conversations, which I found was so hard, and I think it's because there's so much love there for your partner, it's so hard. Whereas, like, if I didn't tell them you didn't, like, you just was like, Jake, you're an idiot. Yeah, let's move on. Whereas when it's your partner, there's so much love there. Um so yeah, it is not an easy um you know, place to to um get to, and but it's but it the the reward outweighs the risk. I wouldn't call it a risk, but I'm saying if it was a risk reward type thing, but having that risk of being like, hey, I don't agree with what you're doing, or hey, I don't agree with what you're doing from her to you, the reward of that is that you're actually so much stronger.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:16

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:17

So and and it's very like you don't feel scared about saying anything, you know, a lot of the times because we're we're on the same page at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:26

And I feel like those little throwaway comments, they stop. Do you know what I mean? Like, no, I mean like it's like not saying I don't say it to shame, but like, you know, instead of being like, oh fuck, you've been a bitch. Yeah, you know, she's like, Well, you've been a dickhead. Yeah, yeah. Instead of having those little throwaway comments that don't need to happen, yeah, you actually get stronger. So it's kind of like if you do have a off day, um her reaction to it is probably more in tune with how it should be. Does that make sense? Then like she's had a bad day, your reactions and your comments are more in tune with to to not add fuel to the fire. Yeah. But it all comes from a lot of work. Yeah. Um, I've got here ambition versus presence. So we were talking earlier about your entrepreneurial mindset, right? Um, creating something from nothing and and giving others opportunities. Um, and you said when the business is thriving, the family takes a hit. Yeah. Um and obviously that would build up a certain level of tension within yourself, within the family dynamic. Yeah. Um, like you now sort of shifted your work from Monday to Thursday, work Fridays and weekends with a family, um, but Monday to Thursday, you get absolutely pumped a lot of the time with the eco-packaging side of things. So, but going from that, you know, four-day work week, five-day work week, let's say, to a four-day, like, how did that was that just something you like you I think you said from the get-go, you're very intentional about you're like, that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:53

Um did that because it was incorporated into the business so easily from early days, did the business I mean, I'm not trying to I don't know business that well, but did the business model then take a hit like financially? Like, does that one day of loss lose some income, but is the reward worth it? So like is the presence versus the ambition? Yeah, like the presence of you being there, I'm guessing, yeah, pays you far more than losing one day.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:22

Does that make sense? 100%. Yeah, 100%. Like um the the Monday to the the Thursday, it it it it gets a bit more hectic, yeah. I don't think more a loss of income and not working the Friday. I think it's more opportunity of getting more. I guess that's a loss in in a way. Yeah. But um, yeah, 100% the just being home with them. Yeah. Like I actually don't care about, you know, how much more are you gonna make in one day? 100%'s gonna sort of outweigh that. You know, and if I can run it on three days a week, I'll do it on three days, man. Whatever's gonna um not uh yeah, take away the time with the kids is the most important thing to me. And as long as we have you know some income coming in, because she works as well. Yeah. And as long as we have enough to for the lifestyle that we want, and we don't live a lavish lifestyle, thankfully, so we don't have that stress on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:19

Um yeah, the main things we want to do is um, you know, we don't want to worry about groceries because we love food. Like says, I'm I'm very fortunate about this. Her de stress is cooking, so like we eat nice and and different foods. Happy days, yeah, yeah. And that's all she wants to be left alone and and cook and whip something up. Um, so that's good. And then travel, like we want to travel with the kids and make memories with the kids. Yeah, um, and as long as we have enough funds for that and you know, and rainy days, then that's that's more than enough. If that means I can go to three days or she can go to four days and we both do four days, cool. But yeah, the main thing we're building our life around is that time with the kids and the family. Yeah. Because like you said, that's going to be their memories.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:04

Well, that's their call, yeah. And I the you uh the same thing. Like I've been reading all these things, and there's one that's like if you're lucky, you have like 18 summers, eighteen winters, eighteen autumn, eighteen springs. It's like the man, it's so rough, you know what I mean? And um, and again, some people don't have the luxury to be able to have four days a week, some are in survival mode. Some do have the luxury and they abuse it because they don't be present. So I think what you're doing is really noble, like and and say as well, like being having the awareness to be able to sit there together and go, what's our priority? But also continue to do things that sort of fill your cups as well. But again, it's it's a juggling app I don't think we ever get right, you know. But I would much rather die knowing that I spent more time with my kids than the than the than the money. So because money can always be made, man. That's what people don't get. Like, I've I've got I'm going through that shift now, you know, where I feel like being off injured, everyone's like, when are you going back to work? When are you this? And like I've shocked a few people. I'm like, what if I don't go back?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:03

Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 1:45:04

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:04

And they're like all about that. They're like, what do you mean? I'm like, what if I don't go back? You know, for us it's a very simple lifestyle. I just want a little bit of land. I don't give a fuck where it is. Yeah. I'll buy a house for 200k and I'll sell it in 30 years for 200k.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:15

I do not care. We live in the middle of the fucking bumfuck. I don't give a shit as long as I have my family there. Yeah. As long as I can have a space for the kids. Like I think that's goal number three up here. Yeah. You know, like I've got here, I've got like a where is it? Created a home for my family, place of peace, connection, and purpose. Sits on at least an acre of land surrounded by trees, open space, fresh and cool air. Perfect. Yeah. Grass covered in morning dew and the environment feels calm, grounded, and alive. Amazing. And that's that's all that I want. You know? Like and just make enough money to get by. Like I work remotely, or hopefully this podcast takes off. Yeah. Or my music takes off. You know, like and I just sit there, and the only time I've got to leave like the ranch is to go and work in a studio with an artist or to go and remotely or go fly somewhere to record a podcast with someone.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:56

Or go and hold a talk for somewhere. Like that's that's the goal. And I think that the the hard part is, and again, it's going back to that fatherhood and is only hard for those who are good at it or who enjoy it, you know, is like that's the hard part is finding the way to be able to fulfill that. Because I know that if I didn't ever work, I'd find it pretty hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:17

Like I need something to be to be pushing the train along, my music or this. Yeah. I need something. Yeah. Because I would go insane being at home all the time. But I also would love to have a space where or a uh um the l the be lucky enough to be able to go, you know what, I'm not doing any music this month. Thank you. Just cruising. Yeah. Be at home, fix some shit on the farm. Yeah. Like, you know, do stuff like that. Yeah. Um so like you know, like obviously for you, it's like you you've been in that that business, you've been in business now six or seven years, maybe longer. I think this is the fifth.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:52

Fifth? Fifth year.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:53

So fifth, you know, and you you're having those moments where you're kind of like, you know, if it goes to the next level, I need to probably dedicate all my time to it and all, you know, uh that type of stuff. But like for you, like what is the success, what does success actually look like to you now compared to when you started? Like when you started the business was you you were very boom, boom, the business needs to succeed, I need to be this and yeah. But obviously, success is now a different vision version for you. Like me talking about how I would love to be able to do this and this, but also have that time. Is that similar? Like, is that something you're working towards?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:27

Yeah, absolutely. If I can um and this is why the um the truck sort of option is is sort of fitting um my lifestyle a bit more because you can like I don't I don't go to the truck now and it runs itself with the manager and and that's like it's essentially residual, right? Yeah, but then depends how much you want to push it and scale it, that's where the time factor comes in. So um that that definitely helps our lifestyle because it it might mean like uh cool, let's just hire someone else for the eco, the packaging, and you know, get an extra m day to maybe work in the truck and get that sort of going a bit more. But success definitely looks like yeah, what I'm doing now I think is is good because it it allows me the time with the kids and us as a family unit. Um but like I said, if success for me doesn't look like scaling the business right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:24

Yeah. Yeah. So the uh the I as I said, correct me if I'm wrong at any time, but the vision you have now, or you have for your future, is that like is that Lee writing his own story, or is it Lee wanting something that he didn't have? Um you know what I mean? Like for your kids. I'm talking more for the kids, so like you trying to give them, I suppose, and again, no disrespect to any of your family, but they're giving you the childhood you probably didn't have, like a lot of us wish we had have had. Um so is that what it is, or is it more um like you writing your own story? Like you're the you're the cycle breaker, like yeah, your kids will look back, like you you'll be great-great-great grandfather Lee who changed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:11

Yeah. I think that's that that's ultimately more where it will go. Yeah. Um, because like you say, breaking the cycle is there's not many people that do it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, and I don't know where that comes from, if you know you the chosen one or something that breaks that cycle. Yeah. But I think it's very important that um yeah, those foundations are met for the kids' sake.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:36

100%. Well, we're the we're the and I I've touched on it in previous episodes, we're the probably, I believe, the the first generation who have uh a perfect blend of how it was pre fucking TikTok, Facebook, all this. And we also understand how much it can change lives. Um, but we also are at this point we have every tool that our in our arsenal to make. Change. Yeah. And if we don't do something with it, then we're stupid to ourselves. Yeah. Because it's always like I've been speaking to a lot of people while I've been off. And it's no no no disrespect to them. A lot of them are people that I absolutely love. I don't speak to anyone I don't fucking like. So sounds bad, but um and I speak to all these people, and the one thing I keep hearing is I can it's like I can hear a sense, a tone in their voice, like of oh yeah, I've just been working. And it's sort of like a very through the motions type thing. And for me, that's the driver, the fuel in the back of my mind going, I don't I used to be that guy, and in theory I still am, um, but I don't want to be back there. You know, so when I see you do your thing, um I find it like it's like I look up to it because I'm like, you're outdoing it. You're outdoing like you know what I would love to do. Like I don't don't comp I don't compare, but I look at it and I go, there's someone doing something that I want to do. So like, how do I get there? You know what I mean? How do I do that? Um because it's like we all want that. We want to not have to answer to anyone and do it on our own terms. Um so like, yeah, but then it's also nice to hear that we have so many similarities. So like you're still thinking and feeling the same shit I am. Yeah. So that and that's the thing, people from the outside always look in. Like, I reckon, no, no, I don't reckon I know from the outside looking in during this period of time. A lot of people are going, like, look at Jay, he's living the dream. He's getting work as compensation, and he's you know, not having to work. It's like, man, like I mean like I've said it before, I'm in pain every day, and it's so hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:29

Um, and it's probably the hardest time to try and build something, you know. But to see, like you, like I said, yourself going through all those years of trying to build something, like, you know, just keep going, man, because I honestly think that, you know, you'll make the right decision. You're that type of guy, got the head on your shoulders, you'll make the right decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:45

If you could start heading towards probably closing it out, but I um if you could go back and say one thing to the kid who was eating dinner alone in his room, what would you tell him?

SPEAKER_01 1:51:59

Um that's that's a deep question, yeah. Uh I'd probably say, yeah, just trust your instincts. Like first and foremost, you're gonna be okay regardless about trusty instincts. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:15

That's it. It's that thing of like it'll it it will uh it'll pass.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:20

It'll pass, yeah. You'll be okay at the end of it. Yeah. You know? Um depending how much time I have with him, uh what else I say, but if it was one thing I'd say, yeah, um, you're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:31

Not all. Yeah, yeah. Just that that child at the or that set of ears just to listen. Just to listen. Yeah, and be there. And uh if your you know, if your kids listen to this episode one day, what do you want them to hear their dad say?

SPEAKER_01 1:52:46

Um nothing in particular, but more um like the the what you how you are as a person, like always leading with love. I think is very important. Being a very kind person and um you know, doing good for others. Definitely. I think that's very important, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:11

So I think for me from this conversation, probably what stands out the most is a lot of who we become is probably like who we what we didn't have when we were younger. I think that's a massive fuel and driver for it. Um and you know, you grew up in a house where the material stuff was there but the emotional stuff wasn't. And again, that's something that I resonate so much with. And I just want to like give you your flowers a little bit and say to you, like, you know, instead of repeating that, you you you uh you've made a decision to change it. And I think that's the most noble and awesome thing that like any man and or father, individual adult can do. Um, because again, there is that stigma, especially around men's mental health, to go and get help and and you know, like man up and deal with those dark days. But I think um to really knuckle down and work on yourself and to try and be uh the the father that you you want your kids to then be, or mother you want your you know daughter to be, um, is amazing, man. Yeah. And like, yeah, there's something that, like I said, I've always always looked to you and admired you just for the work you've put in. And I know that there's been hard times or rough times, um, but hopefully you can look back and again, like, you know, live with that mantra of like it will pass. Like uh, I have that. It's the the good times, you feel good, it's gonna pass. And then you have the shit times, they're gonna pass as well. Yeah, um, you know, you the the way you live and the ability to tell your kids every day that you love them and be intentional and be present to the point we've even modelled a business around family, like a lot of people don't. It's business first, family second. But to be able to, you know, be present even when that business is pulling you away is something that you should be proud of and hold your head high for. Because it's something you need to you might not have a lot of people tell you, you might have people tell you, but I just want to take this time to say you're doing amazing stuff, man. And you're doing you're doing something extremely noble, something extremely beautiful, something extremely selfless. Um, and yeah, you deserve your flowers, bro. So appreciate it. Um it's not easy, it's uh doing that. It's just it's being extremely intentional. And it's one thing I've known about, I I've always known about you, you're intentional.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:30

You're intentional with who you're around, who you who you give your time to, who you don't give your time to. And the most beautiful thing I see from you is the how intentional you are with the time with your kids. Um and just just keep going, man. Because it's it's awesome. And the fact that you can come from where you came from and still choose love, still choose presence, and still choose to do it differently is like I said, it's not easy. It takes a lot of hard work and a lot of uh internal work. So that's what the walk's about. It's about, you know, sometimes you walk forward, sometimes you walk back, sometimes you'll crab walk somewhere. It's just it's about the journey and you're definitely on the right path. So one step at a time, keep going. But uh yeah, I'll close it out on thanks to uh thanks to Lee for being a part of it. And yeah, like I said, bro, thank you so much for dedicating your time. And I know how precious time is to you with family, just like it is for me, but um, to sit down and have this conversation has been awesome. I hope you've gotten something out of it like I have, because um, yeah, it's been great. So appreciate it. Everyone, thank you for tuning in and um cheers, brother.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:30

Thanks, brother. Appreciate it. Thank you, man.